SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm not really sure where to start with this one.

I guess maybe some context...My daughter and I have established a tradition of going on a hiking/camping/road trip adventure every summer; we started when she was just 2 (and much easier to carry on my back.) We had such a nice time that first trip that my H suggested we do it every year. So we are doing that.

I remember pretty shortly after DDay wondering if it would ever be acceptable to go on another trip alone with our daughter. The advice I received was to focus on recovery at the moment and worry about things like that later... Well, three-quarters of a year passed, spring rolled around, and I got the green light from my H to go again. (And I don't know if he just thought it would be fine and maybe it really isn't, or if he just didn't want to tell me not to go, or if he didn't want to deprive our daughter of the experiences, or if it was a secret test that I failed, or what. But he did say I could go.)

The problem is, these trips take a ton of research and planning to execute smoothly and make them enjoyable and safe, especially with a child in tow. This summer really snuck up on me and I was super busy with what seemed like 100 other things-- chicken illnesses, hosting our daughter's birthday party, additional training for my job that also required traveling and arranging childcare... And so I never got around to planning the trip. My previously-estranged paternal grandmother, who lives on the opposite side of the country from us, was pressuring me to come and visit, and I told her we would at the end of June. I was already scrambling to prepare for the birthday party at the beginning of the month, and then the dates for the next time I have to travel for my job got moved around, and all of the sudden my window for this trip was rapidly closing. And of course, H was anxious because I hadn't pinned down a plan yet.

So on the 15th, I did a full day of my usual responsibilities, and then after I put my daughter to bed (I'm just going to call her T), I sat down on my computer and planned the whole trip in one fell swoop. It took me literally all night; I just simply did not go to bed. The 16th was spent on childcare, preparing the chicken run for easy care, doing like a month's worth of laundry at the laundromat (because our dryer was broken and H was trying to fix it, but it turns out it's not really fixable), and packing. I intended to clean the house as well, since it was trashed (as it becomes if I focus on other things instead of cleaning for more than a day), but I was just out of energy by that point. The morning of the 17th, I woke up early to finalize the packing and managed to do some picking up between dealing with T, at least, and then it was time to leave for our flight across the country.

I remember my H being kind of sulky that morning, and I asked him if he was okay and what was up, expecting him to be upset for infidelity-related reasons. He told me that it seems like I had somehow "made things worse." I prompted him to elaborate and he was like, "Well, before I at least had dry dirty clothes I could put on. Now I just have a basket full of damp clothes that I can't wear and a dirty house." (I was using like 7 washers at once at the laundromat and I forgot about the one with a load of his clothing in it, and then I ran out of time to get it all the way dry, because I had to leave to take T to her jiujitsu lesson. But I did get some of his laundry done. He had clothing to wear. And the house was objectively cleaner than it was two days prior, even if it was still pretty bad.) I just stood there with my mouth half open because I couldn't believe he just said that, after what I just went through trying to make things better for him. In my head I was saying all kinds of curse words, but I just neutrally pointed out to him that he did, in fact, have clean clothing to wear. I apologized for not getting to that one load and to the rest of the cleaning before I had to leave.

So, we went away, and he's half-assing the chicken care again and claiming he's "doing his best." And I'm sort of thinking to myself that if I come home to any of my birds dead because he wanted to punish me or have himself a little protest or whatever, I think that'd be the end of our romantic relationship, because my chickens are like the greatest joy I have in my life right now (Sorry T) and it feels an awful lot like he's trying to sabotage the things that are just mine which bring me joy... But I didn't say that to him; I just stressed the importance of the tasks and asked him to please ensure they were done, because the birds and I are depending on him. I thanked him when he said he did them (though I have a hard time believing him after what happened the last couple times and I expect they'll be in pretty bad shape when I get back.)

Cell service out here is spotty, so when I could, I texted him that I love and miss him a couple times. I didn't realize til we got to a major city where coverage is good that he hadn't responded. I asked him if he was mad at me. He said he was struggling with the house being the way it was, and that he "didn't know how to talk to me about it" (idk what was wrong with the last several times he talked to me about it where we heard each other's feelings and brainstormed solutions, but I guess he conveniently forgot about those positive interactions ) I told him I'd clean really well upon my return, but he said he planned to be done cleaning everything by the time I got back. And I think that I should be grateful that he's cleaning, but all I can think about is the house getting messy again while I'm dealing with the million other things on my plate and him throwing a fit about it. And it's like, he acts so put-upon when he does any sort of housework, but I never ask him to do anything around the house. Like he could just leave it and I'll get to it eventually, or he could clean and not be mad about it. We talked about it several times. But he's not picking either of those options...

So in response I just gave him tips for how I usually accomplish the cleaning and how I make it more tolerable. He did not reply.

You guys told me he may just be acting out because of his feelings surrounding my infidelity, and I'm taking that into consideration. But he also still won't talk about it, and whenever I bring it up, his mood darkens. It darkens when I don't bring it up too, and doesn't get any better when I try to figure out what's wrong. How tf am I supposed to be supportive ?

I'm at the point where like, everything I do seems to be wrong. I told my therapist (that H was very insistent I see) I'm juggling so many balls and I feel like I'm dropping all of them. She told me to focus on one at a time. So I've been doing that, and the result is a house that alternates between very messy (from the days I'm focused on other balls), and very clean. But H doesn't remember the days where it's clean.

I'm also told that I need to value myself for who I am, not what I do for other people, and that means having things in my life that are for me, to create and feel joy and find meaning outside of servitude as a wife and a mother. But I feel like H doesn't want me to have or spend time on any of those things. He also wants me to spend all weekend with him, except for when he has to catch up on work, and then I'm on child care duty alone, whether I need to catch up on my stuff or not. But apparently his stuff "always" gets put on the back burner and he "never" gets to tend to lingering tasks.

I'm trying to get a business degree so I can make some income and relieve some of his financial stress when T gets older and goes off to school full time, which H said he supports, but when it comes time for me to sit down and focus on my schoolwork, suddenly it's a problem because I'm not focused on housework and family time.

Nothing is right. Nothing is ever just "good enough," not even when I'm doing my best. Which sounds awfully fucking familiar, doesn't it? I don't think the "not good enough" messages are just coming from my inner critic, either. And I'm thinking, maybe I just need to stop giving a fuck what he thinks or does for a while, and continue working on my self-development, and he can just deal with it. Maybe I pull a 180 and if he wants to actually talk about his feelings like a big boy, we can do that. (I know I'm sounding really mean and callous here, but please notice, I'm not saying these things to him. My responses have been pretty measured, especially compared to what I'm thinking.)

Hiya,

I don’t have much time now, I will try and articulate more later.

[sorry I deleted my original message, as I realised I may have gone off topic and just reacted to things that were triggering for me]

[This message edited by LonelyGuilty at 10:02 AM, Saturday, June 20th]

GotTheMorbs,

So I didn't read through all of your post. But hey, yeah I get it. I'm sorry that you are struggling. I'll be honest with my opinion as a 60+ yr old woman who chose advanced degrees, a career, a marriage, and a life that would allow me to always have independent financial and other options.

You can certainly 180 your husband. Are you prepared for him to divorce you and the consequences? His implied bargain and contract in your marriage is that he makes $350K+, you make almost nothing; and in return for his providing the household income you are expected to take on the majority of the responsibility for childcare, housekeeping, and cooking. You're also expected to provide a homelife quality and a romantic relationship and to do that to a certain standard that he accepts.

Frankly, I don't quite understand what you thought the relationship would be when you entered into it. I don't understand what you expect to change it into either.

You can put your metaphorical foot down and demand things change and a new agreement of your marriage is reached. He may agree to that or not. Or you can wait it out while you gather your financial out.

I'm not complaining that I'm responsible for the housework and most of the childcare. I like being a SAHM. But I also have a job (which is supposed to only be 2 days a month but amounts to much more work than that because I have to do things for it outside of it as well, including maintaining a high degree of physical fitness, seeking educational opportunities, and generally building a good "resume" so that I can get promoted. If I don't promote within a certain amount of time, then I'll be forced out of the job, and we'll lose our health insurance, and then it'll be an additional expense that H is responsible for.)We have 7.5 acres of land that I'm trying to care for and turn into something that will feed our family and provide privacy from our new, increasingly rude and intrusive neighbors. We have dogs and the chickens (who are pets, but also a food source and probably eventually a minor income source, once the juvenile pullets start laying and the rare breed of cockerel I have reaches breeding age) which need caring for. We have a ND 5 year old who needs attention and un-cleans about as fast I can clean... That's a lot to take care of. Some things go undone for a few days at a time while I prioritize other things, but they get done. I feel like other SAHMs get online degrees, have friends, and spend time on their hobbies, so why can't I?

Sometimes when H is stressed about finances, it seems like he thinks I'm a mooch who doesn't do anything all day. So like, I'm trying to eventually make money and contribute that way too, but there are intermediate steps to doing that... And he wants the house to stay really, really clean constantly, and for me to be available to spend every minute with him that he's not working, which I could do... If I were to sacrifice my job duties, hobbies, physical fitness, focus on our daughter, any chance of making friends ever again, etc. Which I don't think aligns with my roadmap for resolving my deeper "whys." Some of the reasons why my AP was so alluring in the first place was because I was desperate for social interaction, and I thought I'd made a friend who was actually interested in me as a whole person. He didn't have exactly the same hobbies and interests as me, but he would ask me questions about them, encourage me, and talk with me for hours at a time. I felt good about myself with him, not like my best wasn't good enough, the way I often feel at home.

So fixing the "whys" should theoretically include:

- Raising my own self esteem
- being a whole, multi faceted person that I can be proud of and find interesting
- Taking good care of myself
- making space for hobbies and social interaction
- rejecting thoughts of not being good enough
- work on eliminating co dependency

So that's why I'm considering a 180. I want to stop being so anxious over H's feelings and trying so hard to figure them out when he is so stubbornly refusing to share them with me. I want to dismiss the behavior of his that ignores the things I do accomplish and tells me I'm not good enough. If the house isn't clean half the time, it's because I'm busy parenting and developing myself and doing other things for our family, and it's not my goddamn fault if he can't see that. I can't make him change, either.

And if he wants to divorce me over that, then so be it, I guess. I don't really want to be with someone who can't allow me to be myself.

The 180 is a last ditch effort to detach.

Your H seems to say that he'll clean up in your absence. Why doesn't he help when you're there?

If your H makes $350K annually, do you need to use a laundromat? Can you not engage a cleaning service?

What you need IMO is one or more discussions with the aim of coming to an agreement about household chores, not the 180.

Maybe I need to detach a little.

He doesn't clean while I'm home because it's my responsibility. He comes home from work and he's tired, so if he wants to park himself on the couch and watch TV, that's what he does. And I'm okay with that because I know he works hard... I just don't know why he doesn't understand that I work hard too, so I should be allowed to spend time on myself. And it's like, any time that he's doing the childcare alone, or he's doing housework, he thinks it's difficult, exhausting, and a lot of work. But somehow that doesn't translate into "My wife does this all the time. It makes sense that she's exhausted and doesn't get to everything everyday." I feel like he thinks if he cleans the house, it should magically stay that way, and if it doesn't it's because I don't care enough not to trash it. Like he takes it getting messy again as a personal insult and a waste of his effort. He doesn't understand that it takes literal constant maintenance... Last time I went away he got the house in great shape, and I kept it like that for about 2 weeks afterwards... But I also fell two weeks behind on my schoolwork, spent virtually no time with my daughter, didn't exercise, and my chickens' living quarters fell into disrepair.

Our dryer broke and he was trying to fix it up until the day before the trip, rather than buying a new one right away. There was a ton of dirty clothing and it would have been super expensive to have all of it done by someone else, and because I planned the trip like less than 48 hours before we departed for it, there wouldn't have been enough turn around time anyway even if we shelled out the money for a laundry service.

ETA: I asked him a while ago to sit down with me and come up with objective, achievable standards so that there weren't any misunderstandings about what's feasible or shifting goalposts, and he said he would and then we never did. I was waiting for him to bring it up again, but he didn't.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 6:14 PM, Saturday, June 20th]

Morbs, while all of this is interesting and I totally understand your frustrations, I have the feeling you already know that doing a 180 isn't going to resolve typical marital issues. And yes, they're fairly typical. Marriage isn't easy, effective communication isn't easy.

As my "big sis," W2BHA, has written in her tag line: "A "perfect marriage" is just two imperfect people who refuse to give up on each other."

GotTheMorbs
Sometimes I get a little triggered reading your posts in the wayward forum because many of the things you say, and the anger you seem to have, resemble the complaints and anger my wife has as well. Even though the two of you have vastly different experiences, you sound similar.

To me it sounds like you are struggling with the same resentments that led you down the path of infidelity in the first place, just as my wife seems to be.

In my wives case she has been spending the vast majority of her time trying to grow a new business. Our kids are older so they mostly take care of themselves, but there is still plenty of house work to do. She is so busy and overwhelmed all of the time that I tend to take on a lot of the domestic chores as well as working full time. It's probably 70/30 at this point. And yet she is still so overwhelmed all of the time. Why?

In her case she has a tendency to assume what I'm thinking and feeling without asking me first. So she takes on tasks or responsibilities no one asked her to take on. She is a huge people pleaser and has a hard time saying no. She does not plan very much down time to relax and do self care. She lets people brow beat her, or feels social pressure to do things she would rather not do. She has poor scheduling skills, etc.

I'm painting this contrast because in reality she has full control over her schedule, and yet she is always booked, and overwhelmed, and frustrated that she doesn't have enough time in the day.

I've told her many times that if she is overwhelmed she needs to take things off of her plate. She needs to schedule down time. She needs to prioritize tasks so she doesn't feel so overwhelmed. She is essentially causing her own stress, and it's frustrating for me when in reality I would like to see her focussing on doing the deep introspective work necessary to become a safe partner again. But she seems way to busy to do that more than once every couple of weeks in therapy. :/ (sorry ranting a little here)

In my wife's case I have repeatedly told her she does not need to build a business. It's a LOT of work and doesn't always work out. We can live comfortably on my income alone. And yet she spends probably 60-80 hours a week working on it. Why? I think she does it to feel good about herself, it's a distraction from the pain of the affair, and I wonder if she is secretly trying to give herself some income in case our relationship doesn't work out. She has said she is not doing that, but that thought keeps coming to my mind anyway. I'm sure your husband has similar stressful thoughts.

In her case she is causing her own overwhelm, and when I bring affair stuff up, she complains she is overwhelmed and frustrated that she has to deal with my stuff as well as all this other stuff. She complains that I am never satisfied and that I keep moving goal posts. She complains that she has to worry about my needs but that I'm not doing the same for her, even though in reality I am. To be fair she doesn't complain about this stuff all the time, only when she gets too emotional.

Now I get that things might be different between the two of you. Your husband might be pressuring you to do a lot. I don't know. I think it's worth a look to see how much of your overwhelm is actually caused by you, and what are your motivations for taking on so much if it is?

If your frustration is really caused by his demands on your time, then you might need to push back a little and see what things you can drop or change to make things easier on you.

Also you don't need to worry so much about his emotional state. Thats going to put a lot of stress on you for really no reason. Rather focus on what being a safe partner looks like, do that consistently, and adjust when he gives you feedback. Keep doing the deep work on yourself, and communicating that to him. Those tings are going to help him a lot more than you worrying about what he's thinking.

=========================

A practical note about chickens:

We had chickens for a couple of years and learned a lot about how to care for them. We had about 12 of them at one point. Eventually I rigged up a chicken waterer made from buckets that could keep them watered for a week at a time with no input on my end. I rigged up a feeder that would do the same. They weren't perfect, but they worked pretty good. They had an enclosed area they lived in as well as a small coop. We didn't have to worry about hawks getting them or them escaping.

When we wen't on vacation for a week, we asked the neighbor who also had chickens to check on them every couple of days to make sure nothing wen't wrong, and to grab eggs if they wanted them. We added a second smaller feeder and waterer just in case something happened with the main units. The chickens were totally fine and the neighbor didn't have to do anything for them at all. We got back, replenished the food and water, and grabbed a ton of eggs that had built up.

When there’s a sort of overreaction or exhaustion about trivial things (mess is not nice but is not your constant problem, sometimes it happens), chances are that there might be some emotional projection hooking to it.

About his lowered effectiveness it is possible if not even likely that infidelity plays a role.
It does drain you, you lose focus and drive and you do get sort of apathetic.

When you see life as grey even simple chores require monumental effort.
Depends on how much he healed.

Before reacting to that you may want to consider making sure that what is goin in his head is not fallout but something to be corrected like entitlement or similar.

I don’t know what it’s going on in his head, maybe you don’t either, but you can inquire.

Unhinged,

Morbs, while all of this is interesting and I totally understand your frustrations, I have the feeling you already know that doing a 180 isn't going to resolve typical marital issues.

Right, but I think it would help me on my recovery journey... And maybe help encourage H to develop some coping skills with his own codependency/OCD instead of continuing to expect standards that I can't provide if I want to have room in my life for important things. Like, I feel like he wants my purpose for existing to be his sidekick, rather than being my own person who shares a life with him.

Theevent,

To me it sounds like you are struggling with the same resentments that led you down the path of infidelity in the first place, just as my wife seems to be.

Yes, exactly. That's why I'm trying to approach this a different way than I have the past 10 years.

I'm not sure how much of this is stories I made up about how my husband feels, or how he actually feels (It would certainly help if he just TOLD ME how he feels, rather than acting scared of my reaction and refusing to challenge his beliefs about how it would go if he was just honest about shit instead of stuffing it down and letting his own resentments simmer under the surface...) But I feel like part of the reason I have so much on my plate is because of how he seems to feel. For example:

- I "must" retain my job not only because it's part of my identity, it's good for networking, and its a source of social interaction, but also because H is constantly stressed about finances/insinuates I don't contribute to the household, therefore I need to keep doing it so that we save $1000 a month on health insurance for our family.

- I "must" get a business degree not only because it looks good for promotional purposes (necessary for keeping my job) and I want to be able to make sufficient money in case anything happens to him, but also because H is stressed about finances/insinuates I don't contribute to the household/laments he may never be able to retire, and I feel like he'd like me to eventually contribute to the finances, especially when our daughter goes off to school full time and the amount of childcare I contribute will be reduced.

- I "must" remain in good physical shape not only because it's good for mental and physical health and also part of my identity, but because it's necessary for my job, to remain attractive to my H, and because he expects me to go to the gym with him when he asks as a means of spending quality time together.

- I "must" maintain our land and make it fruitful not only because it's good for mental and physical health, and good to be independent of the supply chain in the event of emergencies, but because if it gets out of hand, he throws a fit about how we can't have nice things because they just go to shit, and because it would reduce expenditures on groceries (consequently helping to relieve financial stress)

- I "must" figure out how to keep the house clean constantly not only because it's good for functionality and mental health, but because he has OCD and gets angry with me if that's not the case, whether or not he understands that I'm busy with all of the other responsibilities and projects too.

- I "must" keep a significant portion of my schedule open for him in case he invites me for a random lunch out, a date night, gym sessions, office hangouts, weekends together, etc., not only because I like to spend time with him and I want to be a good partner to him, but because if I decline any of those invitations due to being busy, he sulks and seems to think I'd rather be dealing with other responsibilities, rather than me wanting to but just not being able to without neglecting something else that he will later be upset isn't done.

Etc. ("Must" being in quotes because I certainly could elect not to do these things, but not without the consequences of his negative emotional reactions/criticism or losing out on the benefits I derive from them.)

Like I just feel like he paints me out to be the worst mom and wife unless I juggle it all, and it's quite simply impossible to do it all perfectly all of the time. He makes really underhandedly-cruel jokes about it if it's not the sulking or the coldness or the building-up-of-feelings-until-they-explode-unpleasantly. So I don't think it's just me putting all this pressure on myself and listening to my inner critic, either... I want to reject the "not good enough" that he's putting on me and let him deal with his own emotions surrounding it. I'm tired of trying to figure them out and manage them constantly. I want to focus on me, and what I need in order to feel good enough for myself, such that I don't need that (extra marital), external source of validation and escapism from the pressures and responsibilities. And if that's not "good enough" for him... well, he doesn't have to keep me, I guess.

And it's like, I'm not too exhausted to talk about the infidelity any time he wants to. He just doesn't talk about it and then I'm left in the dark trying to figure out what I should be doing to make him feel better. Though he did text me "I wish it didn't happen" yesterday at some point, so I guess that's a start.

Theevent,

To me it sounds like you are struggling with the same resentments that led you down the path of infidelity in the first place, just as my wife seems to be.

Yes, exactly. That's why I'm trying to approach this a different way than I have the past 10 years.

Wow! This is the most encouraging thing I've ever seen you write!

There's a big difference between the 180 and establishing healthy boundaries in a relationship. The 180 is about detaching and finding the inner strength to leave a toxic relationship (that's a simplification). Establishing, enforcing and respecting each other's boundaries is about finding greater harmony and intimacy, in a relationship. Seems to me that you're seeking the latter.

My reco (so sisoon of me) is to start by sharing what you've written above with Mr. Morbs. And remember that he might disagree with somethings and agree with other things and that's okay. It's doing our best to understand each other, as well as we are able, that really makes all the difference. It's starts with seeking to understand rather than to be understood. It's about realizing that we don't have to internalize other people's issues while having empathy and compassion. You can have empathy and compassion for your hubby's OCD & CoD issues without having to make them your own. You can be vulnerable with him while remembering that you are responsible for how you react, that your self-worth is not dependent upon his validation of your concerns and issues.

It's a process that gets easier the more you do it. And while either of you might fail now and again, that's okay, too. Step back and disengage for a while when this happens. Allow time and space for each of you to process both the information shared and the failure to connect.

Rinse and repeat.

You know, practice makes perfect(ish).

I'm not sure how much of this is stories I made up about how my husband feels, or how he actually feels (It would certainly help if he just TOLD ME how he feels, rather than acting scared of my reaction and refusing to challenge his beliefs about how it would go if he was just honest about shit instead of stuffing it down and letting his own resentments simmer under the surface...) But I feel like part of the reason I have so much on my plate is because of how he seems to feel.

Honestly, based on what you have told us about the type of conflict, how it all goes down, etc. I think you may not realize how your litigating and right fighting would make it exhausting to talk to you about any feelings. I think expecting for him to be forthcoming without learning how to provide (and ask for ) emotional safety in your conversations is unrealistic.

I read this original post earlier and thought "this is a post in another vein where you want to be relieved of worrying about your husband feelings. It overwhelms you for sure.

However, I feel like I am starting to understand the pattern further.

The ways you are codependent are very much the patterns I had to work on. Someone being upset with me was like so damning to me. I wasn’t able to handle it. But someone’s feelings are theirs. I had to learn to know who I am well enough that I could learn whether what someone is saying is something I should work on, or something to leave be. When one learns to have a firm sense of self you can say things to yourself like "if this is what this person believes about me, maybe they can’t see me because they are projecting" for a long time all i did was fear they were right.

Learning to find a way to advocate for yourself without turning it around to what must be wrong with them is also helpful. Having clarity over who you are, what you want, what you need, what you need to work on takes time and effort and it is draining.

My husband tiptoed abouttalking to me about his feelings because it definitely made me spiral, which meant I was not providing emotional safety to him because it would end up him having to feel bad for how he made me feel. That’s not fair.

I do think you have to see that a persons feelings aren’t forever, they are very changeable. But it’s no mystery why he seems passive aggressive and says things like "I don’t know how to talk to you about the cleaning" for example because you guys have had so many non productive circular fights and so much right fighting that it’s too exhausting. And when there is no emotional safety then you stay in different teams.

I think the 180 isn’t where your effort should be because I don’t think you need to be further apart. You need to learn better conflict resolution skills and change in a way that everything isn’t a full on litigation. I can tell that you have started to try that more, but it takes a longer sustained change to trust that a pattern has been overcome by your partner.

It took a longer sustained time before my husband felt I was strong enough to hear how he feels, and that bringing up an issue with me was something that I could take in, and truly work on. A lot of those changes actually felt so good to me that it made it easier to make the pivot. However, my issue was never right fighting or litigating, it was usually simply taking things too hard.

Then when you wrote about all the things you have to do to be lived or accepted- I will say that I had to decide if my list of things were true (I had this issue too) and if I was willing to do them. This was why it seemed for a while so much easier not to be married. Eventually, I just did what I wanted and it went okay, but my husband was fine with it. If your isn’t then he is controlling.

The reality is if he makes 350k and is stressed about money then the issue is not with money, it sounds like lifestyle changes are in order. Someone with that income should be able to amply afford to get a housekeeper, save a lot of money and afford their life.

A good way to learn about toxic conflict is dr gottman and his four horseman. Leaning better communication that can create connection rather than both of you playing offense and defensive against each other like you are on different teams.

This also may not be a good fit of a marriage. At the same time until you can learn better communication skills, learn that other people’s feelings aren’t always yours to take on as a condemnation of you, all while leaning into accountability on how you are treating someone, and work in the things within you that creates this fear that causes you to push him away, you probably won’t find a relationship that can suit you in the long term. You have to lean into the things that hold you back in general.

Honestly it sounds like a toxic relationship and maybe he has toxic tendencies too. But again you can only work on your side of the fence.

I am not sure you like being married to him despite your claims or feel you can be who you want to within this relationship. But I can’t tell how much of that is your belief because you don’t have great self esteem/worth. For me, the illusion I couldn’t be who I wanted to was entirely my own skewed perception. There is no way for me to weigh that for you.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:09 AM, Monday, June 22nd]

Ok, I will try again, but this is a "sensitive" topic for me.

Personally, I think what you described is in the realm of "marriage problems" and at some point they should be addressed in a way or another. Based on what you wrote, I think (only my opinion) your H may feel entitled when it comes to chores relating to the household.
I get that he brings majority of the money in but:

1- you contribute as well (both with your part-time job and taking care of your daughter and house. And btw, looking after a little is a full time job in itself)
2- every adult should be able to clean after themselves and take care of the place they live in. Even if it's usually your duty because you take care of the house, he shouldnt be complaining that occasionally he has to do it. Having a job is not a green pass for slacking at home (what if he was leaving by himself?). It's not like when we become adults and start working suddenly we are authorised to drop everything else (e.g. cleaning, laundry, cooking etc.).
3- Neglecting animals / pets on purpose is just plain cruelty.

Anyway, I think you are right in wishing to address these things because they probably contributed to your not feeling that well in the relationship.

I empathise with you around how difficult it can be to fix these things now while also trying to deal with the aftermath of the A.

I think someone already said it in the comments, but what I find helps is "freeing" myself of feeling bad / guilty for something I am not really responsible for (e.g. Spouse being upset because they need to clean the place they live in). In my case I realised I was putting an incredible amount of pressure on myself by just doing that. And then I was exhausted regardless of the amount of things I had actually done. I was constantly worrying.

I know it isn't easy to break the cycle (especially because someone in the M probably benefitted from this). But, in my case, I noticed that when I stopped "worrying" so much, things were still fine. Exactly as if I had worried. So you may try and save yourself the energy and stress on this front. E.g. you are away with your daughter, try not to worry about H sulking because he needs to do house chores.

On the other hand, try also to see the positives in the overall situation. This may be your H weakness / fault, but there is probably so much more to him (as there is so much more to you than infidelity).

The A is another story. I don't know if in your case distance may be a trigger (in my case is a massive trigger). So on this, the above does not apply.

I would talk to him about the different things you mentioned (probably not all at the same time). I would keep an open, gentle (yet assertive) approach - but this is me commenting based on my situation/environment (and also, I am not yet 100% sure what the 180 is!)

and also, I am not yet 100% sure what the 180 is!

Turning your back 180 degrees from the relationship.

Put your self first, begin living as you are single again. Detach emotionally, prepare yourself to move on, and focus on a new life.

You do that when you feel your partner is a lost cause, they don’t care or they are no longer worthy of you.

Sometimes this wakes up your partner. If it doesn’t, no problem, you split. You already shifted into that mindset.

Super condensed, hope you get the idea "brother"!

Thanks guys. This is all really helpful.

I suspect he reads my posts, which sometimes I think is a good thing, and other times maybe not (he finds some things triggering and sometimes I come here to sort out how much of my bitching is reasonable vs unreasonable before I try to address anything with him.) Miraculously last night, he texted me about his feelings re: the infidelity, and we had a pretty in depth conversation about it.

I don't know if I did a good job with my responses or not. I expressed gratitude that he came to me with his feelings, apologized for causing them, and tried to be reassuring...but I know sometimes what I think would be reassuring (to me, if positions were reversed) turns out to really miss the mark (For example, one time a while ago he told me he was having anxiety while I was away, and I said "there's no basis for the anxiety," because when I'm talking to my IC she'll ask me to look around for evidence that what I was anxious about is true vs not true, and that helps me feel better. So what I meant was "if you look for evidence that I'm being unfaithful again, you won't find any. There's no reason to worry right now." But obviously that's not what a reasonable person derives from "there's no basis for your anxiety." Thankfully he understood and accepted my later clarification.)

I've re-read the conversation from last night several times. I tried my best and spoke truthfully, and that's all I could have done, right? I'm trying not to obsess over it, but it's hard. Some of the committee members demand instant feedback, and others are explaining to them that that's not a reasonable expectation. I worry that he doesn’t actually believe what I’m saying, that he might think "She’s just saying that to try and get out of the doghouse; she doesn’t actually mean it."

He’s hung up on the compliments I gave AP, how either they must have been valid, or if they were fake, then how I must be really good at telling people what they want to hear. (Which, I was, for a long time. It was part of my profession at the time.) I tried to tell H that I struggled to come up with relevant, fake compliments for AP so that I could keep getting validation from him in return, which I really wanted from H all along, and now which I am presently trying to give myself. Meanwhile I don’t even have to think about the compliments I give H. They just come pouring out of my mouth all the time, sometimes even involuntarily, because of how into him I am to him, and they could not be more genuine… It makes me so incredibly sad that he doesn’t believe them anymore, that they don’t make him happy or feel good about himself or feel loved. I fucked up so bad…

It will just take time for that to change, right? We will get that back ?

The last message he sent said he "feels like it will happen again" and I told him I’m doing everything in my power to ensure I don’t do it again… But the fact that he said that isn’t letting me have a lot of hope.

It will just take time for that to change, right? We will get that back ?

Obvously no one can know the future, but there are many couples who have reconciled and say their relationship is better than before the affair. So theres hope.

The last message he sent said he "feels like it will happen again" and I told him I’m doing everything in my power to ensure I don’t do it again… But the fact that he said that isn’t letting me have a lot of hope.

The way he's feeling is completely normal in this situation. He never expected you to act like this, and so when he tries to tell his brain to calm down it screams "she won't do it again? I never thought she would do it at all!". I think this comes down to you doing genuine work on yourself, and him seeing that. Genuine consistent positive change over time is going to help him feel safe. He has to re-learn how to feel safe with you.

From my perspective you have grown a lot since coming here. Keep going!

I suspect he reads my posts, which sometimes I think is a good thing, and other times maybe not (he finds some things triggering and sometimes I come here to sort out how much of my bitching is reasonable vs unreasonable before I try to address anything with him.)

Interesting. I had the same experience, in reverse, with my ex-wife. Shortly after joining SI, I showed her the site and told her my username. I'm quite certain she read the threads that I started and replies I wrote to other members. Often enough I came here to sort stuff out before bringing it up with her. Of course, if she'd already read what I'd posted, it was a moot point.

It's impossible to accurately access whether my choice was to share was beneficial, or to what degree if at all. However, it did allow her greater access to my feelings and thoughts as I processed through them. I also think reading the replies to my posts offered greater insight regarding infidelity and reconciliation.

At some point - I can't remember when exactly - she created her own account and posted several times (I do not remember her username).

So long as knowing he might be reading doesn't color your engagement here, I'd imagine that, on the whole, it's a good thing. And when and if he's ready, joining might help him, too.

It makes me so incredibly sad that he doesn’t believe them anymore, that they don’t make him happy or feel good about himself or feel loved. I fucked up so bad…

Give it time, Morbs. Remember, reconciliation is a marathon, not a sprint. If R is going to happen for you two, it's going to take years.

I've seen a phenomenal amount of work and growth from you already.

What I don't understand about your posts like these is that you write of what you must do in your lifestyle, (because your husband demands it?) but there's never any mention of what you want to do. what is the life you want to create?

I'm only guessing at your lifestyle by what you write here. If your husband died tomorrow, I suppose you would have enough with SS, investments/inheritance, and your job to live. Then you would have to create a life and other income.

What would you do? Would you sell that property or is that your passion project that you would try to turn into an income stream? Is it your husband's passion project and not yours? I don't know much about agricultural economics, but I know others who have done that. I have a friend who boards horses and rehabilitates problem horses. I met a woman who grows wildflowers and sells them.

If I felt like my husband was intentionally cruel and abusive as you have mentioned several times, I would focus on becoming independent career-wise. That would be big for me. It would be my goal and primary focus.

I would skip a general business degree and go for something that is focused toward training for a particular job quickly. I've met people who work full-time for the reserves or guard. Is that an option? You could do a tech degree like radiology technician or dental hygienist. Maybe something where you could work part-time and keep a license. You could get a 2-yr accounting degree to help you immediately get a job and work toward a 4-year degree and CPA if being in a business-related field is appealing.

It's just not clear what you want- other than for your husband to not be demanding. I don't know any way to change those aspects in him. The techniques here aren't intended to do that.

Even with recreation, many couples try to incorporate joint interests. Are the projects on the property a joint interest? It sounds like you're both into fitness. That would be easy to schedule regularly together. If he likes cooking, you can spend time on the weekend preparing meals together that you can freeze or eat later in the week.

[This message edited by KitchenDepth5551 at 5:29 PM, Monday, June 22nd]

I am glad he opened up and that you did your best with the opportunity to support him. Texting can be helpful because it gives you a beat to think about your response.

I am glad you said that you are going to do what you can to see that it doesn’t happen. Because it’s happened before his feelings of "it is going to happen again" are reasonable, and it’s important you don’t try and deny his reality. This is a good example of accountability of it makes sense he feels this way and all I can do is say I am working hard on myself so that dont.

I see some progress.