SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

We've been talking a lot which has been really good and helpful. Things seem to be going well even though we have tough conversations. I tend to do most of the listening - he has been talking a lot about his depression, the mistakes he's made, and the people he has hurt.

My WS talks about how the sex with others meant nothing to him and had nothing to do with me. I can understand that because he was cheating with sex apps (you can't get more meaningless) although he did see one woman for four months and one for two months. He says that sex with me is different and means a lot more. I can understand this too. He says that he has never stopped loving me and that this came about through his depression and childhood abuse (all types). His depression got worse after his job loss and the childhood trauma has returned because there are legal proceedings to protect children from his abusers and he has been subpoenaed (spelling?). This is also bringing up memories from his childhood.

What I'm having trouble with is if it meant nothing to him, then why did he keep doing it? Escape from reality? More stress is coming - will he cheat again? He says the cheating means more to me than him. Do they all feel that way? Also, how can it not have anything to do with me? Did he not think of me at all during all of this? Wasn't the lying and sneaking part of the thrill? He said he never meant to hurt me - he never thought he'd get caught.

Sometimes, I say that I thought he was just depressed. It didn't even cross my mind that he was cheating (until I caught him of course). He doesn't like that I say "just depressed" because he feels the cheating was part of the depression and made him feel worse. I don't say "just depressed" anymore, but I feel you can be depressed without cheating. I thought he was just sitting around the house very depressed. I was talking with my parents about hospitalizing him because I was so worried. I had no idea he had this other life in this world I didn't even know existed.

I don't know if any of this makes any sense.

Other things...

He has been making an effort with our kids which is something we've talked about. He detached from our marriage, and he also detached from our kids. He is dealing is "Look who's being a father now" and "did grandpa die? Then, why are you calling?" But he shrugs it off and keeps going which I am happy about. He is now up to date with what is going on in their lives which is nice. I

Oops, I hit post while typing...

I see that the kids see a big difference.

Yesterday, my daughter triggered me by talking about her schedule. He cheated around her schedule as well. I started to cry and had to leave the call. She then called my WS and told him I was crying and didn't know why. He called me immediately (I was so unhappy she called him) and pushed me to talk about it. I didn't want him to know I was crying. He said that his mistake was letting feelings build up and not talk to me. So, we talked and he reassured me.

I think these are good steps? Is this what R looks like?

Yes it’s what recovery looks like.

...if it meant nothing to him, then why did he keep doing it? Escape from reality?

Yep. It's not unlike a drug addiction or alcoholism. The brain doesn't care whether the sex is with a spouse or an AP; it still releases dopamine, oxytocin, endorphins, prolactin, etc. And just as with any other addiction, it's self-destructive.

He says the cheating means more to me than him.

The impact is the difference. For most people, the betrayal of infidelity is a profound shock and a severe emotional and psychological trauma. He is not experiencing the same impact.

When (if) he begins to feel the weight of his own guilt, shame and remorse, the infidelity might mean more to him than he's currently willing to face and admit. When (if) he realizes the extent of the damage he's done to himself, he'll start to see the betrayals differently.

The first person a wayward betrays is himself. Right now, I'd imagine, he doesn't understand this. When (if) he does, you'll notice a change in his attitude.

Also, how can it not have anything to do with me?

Because it's not about you. It's about his issues. Nothing you ever said or didn't say, nothing you ever did or didn't do, would have made any difference at all.

In all my years here I've tried to identify one thing - just ONE - that we all have in common and there's nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada. I cannot identify one single trait that we all share that could possibly justify infidelity.

It's not about you.

BTW, infidelity is not a mistake; it's a choice. Big difference. Don't let him get away with absolving himself, even partially, by calling his deliberate decisions mistakes.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 5:29 PM, Friday, May 29th]

ShockedShattered I think the line that stood out most to me was

I had no idea he had this other life in this world I didn't even know existed.

as that feels like such a huge part of the trauma as it is not only the cheating itself but discovering that while you were worried about his depression and trying to support him - there was an entirely different reality running alongside the one you thought you were living in. I also struggle with the phrase "it meant nothing" because if something truly means nothing, people do not usually risk so much for it - whether it was escape/validatio/avoidance or something else it still had enough meaning for him to keep choosing it. What does sound positive to me is that he is showing up for difficult conversations making an effort with the children and responding when you are triggered and that does sound more like recovery than avoidance.

When my FWH said something like that to me I told him he was right. I was nothing to him. I meant nothing at all and I was going to act accordingly. That’s why the 180 is so important. You can and will go on without them and there’s no reason to take it personally since we meant nothing to them.
That’s a stinger to the heart.
He also said he never meant to hurt me…my reply was no, you wanted to kill me. Again, if we mean nothing to them and they didn’t mean to hurt us then what’s the big deal about moving on without them?

I remember early on during our reconciliation, actually I think it was within the first few days of d-day, my wife telling me you are giving this way too much weight, it wasn't that serious. I think I replied with something along the lines of I am considering divorce over this so yeah I think you're the one not giving it enough weight

Think of the cheating (in this case) like an addiction. Similar to over eating or over spending etc.

The cheater knows it’s wrong but the temporary "feel good" they get from it is enough to make them do it again. And it becomes a cycle. They want to stop, pressure mounts, they cheat, they get a release, then feel shame. Repeat again and again.

I’m not excusing the behavior but trying to help you understand it.

I had a client who continually bailed out his wife because of credit card debt. She’s run up the cards, he’d pay them off. Again and again. She couldn’t stop and he couldn’t do anything to stop it either. Vicious cycle. She’d cry and make promises but at the end of the day, she didn’t stop buying crap they didn’t need. Because the act of buying in the moment wiped away the shame and guilt she suffered post - buying spree.

So it may have meant nothing to him. But that doesn’t negate the trauma you suffered as the result of his cheating.

When my FWH said something like that to me I told him he was right. I was nothing to him. I meant nothing at all and I was going to act accordingly. That’s why the 180 is so important. You can and will go on without them and there’s no reason to take it personally since we meant nothing to them.
That’s a stinger to the heart.

Absolutely.

Brava cat lady.

If something means nothing to you and you throw your partner under the bus to get that "nothing", there is just about no clearer declaration of what is your value in their eyes.

Less than zero, good to trash when the zero is available.

Is the stupidity of minimization to preserve their own broken ego that blinds them to the fact of how much you are nothing more than a safety net for them. To be discarded at leisure.

But the ego is safe.

Fortunately, you can accept and appreciate what it means: they don’t really care. They are not there yet since they minimize the impact of their abuse on you.

Maybe they will never be, surely they won’t unless they stick the minimization in their cavernous dark hole and begin to take full accountability for their sexual and emotional abuse and the trauma they inflicted upon you.

Consequences. Humans learn through consequences.
It meant nothing? Duly noted.

Then I have now clarity on how to reassess my own scale of value.
You are going to receive the same value you placed me in your personal scale.

Consequences.
They sure are sweet

It takes someone of extreme emotional immaturity and complete lack of values for themselves or anyone else to cheat in the first place. And although many will disagree, I think most of them have their three year old brains so far up their asses that they truly believe it’s harming no one because their spouse will never find out. Kind of like a three year old stealing the cookies "mom will never know since I didn’t get caught so what’s the big deal?" I think when they say it means nothing they truly mean "it means I get a little high for the day , but there is no reality to it and I’d never consider a life with that person". It just becomes and escape or habit that they truly believe is hurting no one. I think many then feel "stuck" even if they grow tired or bored with the situation. I mean, rarely does one AP end anything without the scorned one squealing like a spoiled baby so again, in their three year old emotional brain they think "the safest bet is to keep AP happy so my secret stays a secret". Total insanity, but I understand what they mean when they say "it meant nothing". I think they really mean "it meant nothing to me that I value which is why I kept it a secret and would never give up my life for him/her". I am in no way excusing their behavior , but I think I totally understand what my husband meant when he made those phrases. And I may be the only one here that feels this way, but it absolutely mattered to me. Had he loved her or ever entertained a life with her, I think I’d of helped him pack. Actually, that’s a lie, I’d already thrown out clothes. 🤣🤣🤷‍♀️

On the other side.

Minimization is a coping mechanism to excuse the inexcusable and thus making it acceptable. Easier than owning the evil and atone for it, is excusing it and reframing as "not evil, just a slip". So you don’t need to answer for it.

Escapism. The same thing you do I. An affair. It tells you all about where your partner stands and just how much they care about your wounds.

They mean nothing. Less because they come "below", second to the "nothing" the betrayal.

Harsh truth, but real truth.

Just let’s quantify what this "nothing" does to your life shall we?

- relationship = dead

- trust = destroyed

- history = tainted

- reality = broken

- emotional and psychological health = life scarring trauma

- relationships with any person more or less connected to you, before during and after the affair = destroyed

- family = broken and bleeding

- past / present / future = gone, gone and gone

- self worth = annihilated and difficult to rebuild from the ashes

- attachment = wounded and compromised for every present and future relationship in your life, no matter if you want to build a new life, that’s been taken away from you by your wayward regardless.

Does this list mean nothing to any human being with a shred of empathy?

And it’s not a tragedy that "just happened ". All the above is the consequence of the deliberate, intentional, calculated choice of the betraying partner. The fallout and a life sentence for a crime you didn’t commit.

You feel all of it.

And it means nothing

That’s what your wayward is telling you. That’s what your wayward values you when saying that.

Your healing will have to do a lot of work to patch up those wounds, some will never recover. And there is a galaxy more we could list.

So that means nothing for you, dear wayward partner? (Less actually, the "nothing" was put first)

Ok, thank you. I see with clarity now.

And consequences are long due.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 11:08 AM, Wednesday, June 3rd]

Thank you all for your responses. I read them over a lot trying to process. Usually, I think we're doing well and sometimes his comments make me wonder.

Back from the storm, respectfully, short of complete sadness I didn’t feel the emotions you describe nor did I feel my relationship was destroyed. I knew from the start he was the fuck up and his behavior had nothing to do with me or even our relationship. For me, the word nothing in this context or at least for my husband was not a way to minimize (he was taking full accountability from the start). It was a word choice to characterize what he was thinking and feeling during the cheating. And by "nothing" he meant nothing meaningful or real. The beer means nothing to an alcoholic except immediate escapism. If you were to ask an alcoholic if they’d choose alcohol over their spouse’s most would say no, but their actions say otherwise. So in affair context nothing means "nothing that mattered" emotionally. Is it excuse or justification!? That’s a hard hell no. But what he was feeling and thinking , however skewed and awful mattered to me. It took seeing my devastation for the asshat to see that he was hurting me. I think a lot of cheaters truly believe since no one knows, it’s hurting no one. It’s a victimless crime in their emotionally stunted brain. In therapy my husband actually said "while I know how f’ing stupid I was now, at the time I believed you’d never find out, but if you did you’d be pissed, but not that hurt". He was being honest with how he felt doing the cheating. We ask for honesty. For me, it never felt right to decide what the cheater was thinking or doing or to pick apart his language to make it mean what I suspected it meant. We all have different communication styles and after years of talking and therapy my husbands use of the word nothing is something I accept and understand. Again, I don’t use it to excuse the behavior, but I use it to understand the twisted mind of a formerly fucked up man. I will never be or completely understand a cheater. The best I could hope for is for the former cheater to explain his thinking and feeling at the time of the cheating. I needed that to heal and realize it was completely a HE problem and something he needed to fix. Given that, I wasn’t giving up my life for his fuck up. He has always been a high paid breadwinner and I’ve never had to work even once my kids were older. I had no incentive to leave that situation and life I loved. He could fix himself and maybe have me back as a true wife or he could have stayed an asshat and I’d just do my own thing on his dime. Either way, his affair meant nothing to him that mattered and I accept that.

It’s minimization of your own pain, trauma.

I get in his mind he justified it as meaningless so it doesn’t weight on his conscience.

It was plenty of meaning and trauma to you.

Once you see the devastation that causes, calling it meaningless it is disregarding your pain.

It does destroy the relationship, thinking otherwise is a wishful delusion.
Wether you leave or stay the relationship you had before is dead.
It is never coming back.

No matter how much you want it or how hard you work on it. Infidelity destroys what it was and it is not coming back.

And it’s important to accept that if you ever aim to rebuild, because you have to build something else, something different, new.

The past is gone even if you stay with the same person.

Back from the storm, with all due respect who are you to tell me or anyone else what I/they are doing and thinking with their personal feelings? Who are you to determine pain is being minimized ? You know nothing about people’s emotional makeups or marriages short of the questions asked and the stories they tell through the lens of often extreme pain. I would never dispute how one feels, characterize their marriage, nor try to diagnose what they or their WP are doing in the aftermath. So please try to show others the same respect. I am almost a decade out and have had years to come to terms with what happened, how it’s changed me and my perception of marriage, love, etc. We all feel and process differently. Let’s try and respect those differences and feel free to share them to perhaps offer those still suffering perspectives that may help. I get take what you need and leave the rest mentality here, but nobody needs a diagnosis of their mental health nor to be told by a stranger what cheating has done to their marriage. Those are truths to your story and I respect it. They aren’t universal. I think the only universal truth is infidelity always hurts , but I think the degree of sting, the details that hurt the most, and how we heal vary per the individual. For me, accepting it "meant nothing" in no way minimized the pain I felt. It helped me understand the mind of a cheater and how they rationalize what they are doing before getting caught. There was no rationalizing after being caught. I wanted to know specifically how he managed to survive with the guilt and secret. Did he even have a conscience? Either he was an emotional fuck up or a psychopath. I hoped for fuck up as that can be helped. So far, seems that was the case.

[This message edited by OnTheOtherSideOfHell at 7:26 PM, Wednesday, June 3rd]

Someone who is never going to tell you what your feelings are. Being a personal perception they are what you have processed them to be. Can be completely subjective or counterintuitive depending upon wether they arise from acceptance or coping mechanisms to protect yourself.

You may legitimately even feel overjoyed by having been betrayed paradoxically, and that would be still legitimate as it is your own perception.

What I don’t accept is subjective feelings trumping reality of actions, gaslighting and pretending that others have to buy into a lie.

When your husband says that he did not do anything bad because he felt it didn’t mean anything, he is lying.

If that were to be true, he had exactly zero reason to lie, to keep it hidden.

The behavior of lying and secrecy is revealing of a deeper knowledge that what he was doing was bad, he knew it no matter if he told whatever story in self denial.

I can’t judge the level of immaturity of the man since I do not know him, but since you seem a sensible and intelligent person I hardly believe he is showing the maturity of a 4 years old like "if I get caught I might get chewed up a little. Not big deal".

I assume the man you chose as your life partner must have met some requirements of maturity to pass your standards. At least apparently, the issues that allowed him to betray you were likely buried deeper.

All I can judge is his actions: infidelity covered by lies. You can’t tell me by any means that his actions have a different meaning because he doesn’t feel like they could cause any harm, besides "pissing you off".

I see a man who betrayed his wife and lied to her. I am intelligent enough and detached emotionally enough from his that I can call bs on his claims of "being just an innocent slip". He lied you because he knew he would harm you.

This is objective, no matter what you may subjectively feel.

You also claimed that it caused you sadness but you didn’t experience any of the listed consequences:

- broken trust, attachment wound, trauma, broken relationship, self worth issues, the usual betrayal fallout.

This is unusual but it can very well be. I don’t exclude that in your specific experience you didn’t suffer it as a traumatic event, you only know what you felt (at this point I am curious about what your experience of the infidelity was, because again it appear unusual). I haven’t questioned it, I am aware that the experience of infidelity is very subjective and on the extreme there is even individual who find it exciting and erotic to be betrayed by their partners. But I doubt they are frequenting this board. And I subjectively see that extreme as very dysfunctional and unhealthy.

What I question is the dissonance between your husband’s behaviors and claims, because they are an evident liars’s lie.

Mind that I understand that in the framework of your therapy you came to understand his language and meaning in a specific way when he says that.

But when I see someone saying a lie, that they betrayed their partner but they really didn’t think they would hurt anyone (but they lie about it all, they don’t come clean right?) I call it out. This is no lack of respect towards you. But I have less than zero tolerance for liars, no respect at all.

If you believe in what he said you are free to get the interpretation you feel more suitable for your inner peace, that is the only reasonable goal and the desired outcome for your own healing, it is all that matters.

You should not feel threatened by me or anyone calling bull on your wayward’s claims of "I didn’t think this was going to hurt anyone, because it meant nothing". Because it is factually bull, and it will be called out (unsurprisingly almost all our waywards say that exact same thing, is not something unique to your situation, and surprise surprise… our waywards are bullshitting us about that. Minimization).

Lies are lies, those we get told and those we tell ourselves.

And when you lie that is where you don’t respect

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 9:28 PM, Wednesday, June 3rd]